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Two wheels discussion thread! (Motorcycles only!)

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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Two wheels discussion thread! (Motorcycles only!)
    Posted: May/10/2012 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Shakazulu

I'll have to check and see what the current record is for a bike.  I don't think there is an official one since WMRRA won't be running there until the July round I believe.  They did get it certified as a track for the series and added it this year, which is awesome.  

Broke the foot last week, and yeah, its the same one that I tore all the tendons out of last year.  Was stacking sheets of half inch fiber cement against a wall, because I had stupidly put the 1/4 inch ones on the bottom.  Friend of mine was holding the sheets against the wall and somehow lost her grip.  About  30 of them came down on top of my foot like a sledgehammer.  The fractures are all pretty small, the main thing is the big bone contusion right on the ball of my foot.  Can't put any pressure through it for a while.  

Just a quick edit, was reading some of the reviews from those who attended this weekend's event at the new track, this comment had me laughing

Originally Posted by theJrod View Post
And from my limited time on it so far, here's my assessment:

T3 apex is blind
T3 exit is blind
T4 is blind from T3
T5 is blind from T4
T6 entrance is blind
T6 exit is so far away from T6 entry, that it's basically blind
T7 is blind until you're in it.
T8b is kinda blind until you're at the apex of T8a
T9 exit is blind from the apex.
T11 is an extremely late apex, wide entry that is blind until you're out of T10
T13 is tighter than you think.... oh and it's blind

I think there's a theme here, but I can't see it.
 
That is pretty funny. But, blind corners on a racetrack don't bother me as much as on the street. On the track, you find your reference points (braking, turn-in, etc...) and use them to "see" the track. Plus there's only a handfull of corners to learn. Blind corners on the street scare the crap outta me... never know whats coming the other way. Came upon a bike that happened to this weekend. Sucks when there is something coming the other way.
 
Bummer about the foot; freak accident. Heal up soon. No racing this year then?
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2012 at 6:56pm
I think I'll be ready for the 2nd June round of OMRRA.  Its tough to say though really, I can hobble around just fine with a limp, but as you know you are on the balls of your feet while riding, and right now it feels like I have a rusty nail stuck in there.

Found this shot of Michael Laverty which I use to remind myself that I'm never going to be a pro at this.


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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2012 at 11:09pm
Originally posted by Shakazulu


That is very strange. I know it sounds crazy, but did you check all the bolts on the axle and triple clamps? Strange that it would happen randomly, and then go away. Maybe time to freshen the fork oil.

There is a recent thread in the Tech section on the WERA board about the Kawi. Edwho had some comments on setup, he is my local shop and just got back from hanging out with the Kawi WSS team in Europe. Might want to post in there or shoot him a PM. I'll ask him sometime this week, gotta go check in on my R6 anyway.


I know... like I said, it blew my mind. Only thing I noticed that was loose from one day to the other was ONE bolt that hold the damper. I find it highly unlikely that it would have that much effect on the bike's behavior but with this kinda stuff you never really know. I tighten it back up before the first session of the track day too... I'll loosen it again to see what happens, shtook it! hahaha Can't live in doubt, can I!?


Bought some new Pirellis anyway, well... paid for them. Will collect them in a couple of weeks cause we bought 50 sets amongst 22 of us to get a better price. Still undecided whether I should get the 190s or stick with 200 rears.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2012 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Shakazulu

Found this shot of Michael Laverty which I use to remind myself that I'm never going to be a pro at this.

The pros make it looks so easy... Clap

Originally posted by educalifa

Bought some new Pirellis anyway, well... paid for them. Will collect them in a couple of weeks cause we bought 50 sets amongst 22 of us to get a better price. Still undecided whether I should get the 190s or stick with 200 rears.

50 sets? That's alot of tires. You guys must have gotten a really good price.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2012 at 9:14pm
Still not that cheap... US has the best prices by far. You guys are spoiled! hahaha

Also it was supposed to be 30, not 50!! Typo! My bad.
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  Quote scuddera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2012 at 5:08am
I have 2 jackets and a helmet for sale.
1. scorpion leather, black, size XL fits like a large though
2. joe rocket not leather, purple and black. size L
3. HJC Black helmet size Med

PM if you are interested. my pics wont upload here but I can email them to you and we can talk price
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2012 at 6:16am
WSBK Race 2 FTMFW!!!!!  That was a  great race, even if the ending was a little controversial.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2012 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by Shakazulu

WSBK Race 2 FTMFW!!!!!  That was a  great race, even if the ending was a little controversial.
DVRd it. Looking forward to watching it... maybe tonight.
 
Infineon was great yesterday, but I'm beat. Been off the track bike for too long and that track is alot of work. Only 23s off of the AMA Superbike laptimes... LOL
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2012 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by dking

Originally posted by Shakazulu

WSBK Race 2 FTMFW!!!!!  That was a  great race, even if the ending was a little controversial.
DVRd it. Looking forward to watching it... maybe tonight.
 
Infineon was great yesterday, but I'm beat. Been off the track bike for too long and that track is alot of work. Only 23s off of the AMA Superbike laptimes... LOL

Obviously you need more Monster stickers on your bike, should knock 15 seconds off with just those.  Leg dangle will take another 10 seconds off.


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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2012 at 11:34pm
I'd say race ONE AND TWO!! 2 was better but one had me on the edge of my seat already!!
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/15/2012 at 1:24pm
Watched the WSB races last night... OMG! Clap I didn't think that announcer (Jonathon Greene) could get any more excited than normal, but even Steve Martin (the other, normally calm, ex-racer) was raving. Those were two of the best races I've seen in a long time. I had mixed feelings on the outcome of race 2 tho...
 
Not much other than more time on that track (Infineon/Sears Point) will help my laptimes for now. At most I go there twice a year and I hadn't been in over two years. And to think, I was in the A group (albeit one of the slower, but not the slowest rider). Thankfully the AFM racers were at T-hill Wink).
 
I may have to try the Monster stickers... stickers gotta help. But prolly not the leg dangle. I already got a leg cramp midway through the second to last session.
 
I reality, I could imagine picking up another 10s per lap with practice, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk much more. Also, a 600/750 would be better on that track.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2012 at 6:00am
That does look like a very technical track.  I was simply amazed watching the fast guys work their machines around there during the AMA coverage.  Always fun to watch.

Book a day with Ken Hill, that would probably get you really close to your 10 seconds in one day.  I saw he and Scott Russell are offering a new private school that includes bike rental.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2012 at 1:06pm
Yep, I see Ken Hill at the track alot doing personalized training. Gary Jeane, another local fast guy, also does this and was there that day. More than anything, I just need to go there more often. I have more time at T-hill and am much faster (relative to the fast guys) there. I would like to to a school at Infineon and I did see some info about the Hill/Russell school, but I think it's sold out already. And, I'd rather do it on my bike.
 
My normal trackday provides has schools, but thy are all up at T-hill. I don't know of anyone else doing full schools there, but will have to look deeper.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2012 at 4:45am
Anyone has any experience with the Carrozzeria TRI Rs? I know some Carrozzeria's previous models had some issues when fitting the tire but I can't find much info on the Tri R. Supposed to be pretty light for Alu and that price is not too bad either.

Only thing that sucks is that I'll have to run F4i disks apparently.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2012 at 6:28am
Originally posted by educalifa

Anyone has any experience with the Carrozzeria TRI Rs? I know some Carrozzeria's previous models had some issues when fitting the tire but I can't find much info on the Tri R. Supposed to be pretty light for Alu and that price is not too bad either.

Only thing that sucks is that I'll have to run F4i disks apparently.

Local shop sells a bunch of them.  He had problems  a few years ago with quality control, anodizing was bad and some bad bearings.  The company stepped up, took care of everyone.  Since then he hasn't had any issues.  Though he sells less of them than he used to, many OEM wheels are approaching aftermarket aluminium weights (Triumph 675's in particular are known to be lighter than some aftermarkets).  No idea on Kawi wheels.  Only thing I would ask is if that affects your racing classes?  Here it relegates you to superbike only if you throw on aftermarket wheels.  Though several just mount DOT's to the OEM ones and swap to slicks mounted on the others for superbike races.


And what the hell with Casey Stoner announcing his retirement?


Just throwing it out there, but that does sorta open up a seat for Rossi and Honda to kiss and make up.  Just sayin'Big smile
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2012 at 1:06pm

I almost bought a set of Carrozzeria wheels, but never could justify the expense. I know plenty of racers use them and some hot rodders that like the pretty colors. I haven't heard of any quality issues lately.

WTF is up with Stoner retiring? How old is he? Surprising to hear, but maybe he just wants to go out on top. He seems to be doing it easily this season. I would think that would make him want to stay longer, but maybe he's just lost the drive with the lack of competition. Still weird.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2012 at 5:56pm
I read an interview with him, and it just seems like he is sick of it.  Doesn't like the direction the series is going, hates dealing with the media etc.  My hat's off to him, granted I can't stand his whiny/bitching ways, but he won two world championships, made millions of dollars and is going to go home and bang this for the rest of his life.  All at the age of 26.


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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/17/2012 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Shakazulu

I read an interview with him, and it just seems like he is sick of it.  Doesn't like the direction the series is going, hates dealing with the media etc.  My hat's off to him, granted I can't stand his whiny/bitching ways, but he won two world championships, made millions of dollars and is going to go home and bang this for the rest of his life.  All at the age of 26.


Read the same thing and I feel exactly the same way about Stoner.

I'm racing on a series where you race what you bring. Anything is allowed as long as it's 600cc, so yeah... the wheels would be ok. I wanted to try my hand at another series where you have to keep your bike pretty close to stock but I'm not fast enough for it yet (I know, it sounds wrong but the stock class is where the fast guys are and it costs A LOOOOOOOOOT more).

I even had the stock rear shock revalved so I could race there but at the moment I'd have to drop at least another 10secs and spend close to 10Gs to be competitive. Unrealistic to say the least.

On top of that, I need a spare set of wheels. I can buy a set of OEMs locally for around $500 but I was thinking of spending more and getting a decent set and using the OEM's for the wets.

The Tri Rs are supposed to be almost as light as the forged mags which is impressive. Only problem is that they don't make a front wheel that will use the stock rotors on my bike. Carrozzeria provides them with a set of their own disks but I don't know anyone running them... and to be honest I don't even think they would be that good. If I want to replace them, I need to use F4is disks (go figure) and those are not exactly popular anymore so good aftermarket brands won't be easy to find either.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2012 at 2:10pm
I knew Carrozzeria started offering front brake disks, but didn't realize you can only run their disks. Must be something new. Kinda sucks for now, but I'd imagine it will work itself out in the future... one way or another.
 
I would think you could find F4i disks... maybe even pretty cheap as leftovers. Hard to say though without looking and I have no idea what would be available to you over there.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2012 at 5:07pm
Well, the thing is, you can run your own disks. But not if you have a ZX6R... They don't make a carrier that will work with them. Which sucks.

I've been told I may be able to run a larger disk (310mm) with spacers to line up the calipers if I buy the ZX10R front wheel instead.

Sounds like a lot of @4$@$% around just because the manufacturer didn't do its homework. I might end up going with Marchesinis or even Dymags.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2012 at 8:40am
That does sound annoying as hell.  I know that some of the aftermarket ones require Kawasaki sprockets, but I had no idea that you would be limited on brake choices like that.  That would definitely keep me from running them.  

There are tons of lightweight wheel options out there now anyway, for a little bit more you can have some O.Z. Racings or something like that, and they look better IMHO anyway.  

Our Novice class structure is like that here.  basically if you have anything that is considered a 600, (675's and 848's count), you can run novice with unlimited mod's.  Next level up is simply NV5, which is 750's and up.  You have to start picking your classes by mod's after you graduate though.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2012 at 3:32pm
848s vs 600?? Wow... now that's unfair! hahaha I'd understand it if you could run 750s as well but why only the Ducs?
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/19/2012 at 10:11pm
AFAIK, the 848 twins make about the same power as I4 600s and they balance out the rest with minimum weights. Same as they do with I4 1000s and 1200cc twins in the suberbike classes.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 9:28am
Seems like all the regional clubs follow the AMA guidelines, except I haven't seen any weight penalties.  You would think 848's would be killing it in 600, 1098's are allowed to run with the 750's.  That said, I have never seen one win a non-twin specific class race in OMRRA or WMRRA.  In fact, the open twins lap record here is several seconds off even the 600 supersport lap record.  Though I have to think a big chunk of that is none of the really fast guys bother with riding them.  Cost too much to buy and maintain, and in the case of the Ducati's, need a lot of chassis mods to get them to turn properly, means you can't run any supersport classes.

A supersport built 848 dyno's anywhere from about 128-135 depending on what fuel you are using, though they do make 70 lb ft of torque.  Only thing is they run out of rev's really fast.  The Latus team would spin the hell out of them to keep up with the R6's in AMA, but they ended up having to rotate 5 engines through the bike during the season due to how frequently they had to build them to spin that fast. 

1098's really don't make much more power than a blueprinted/SS spec 750.  Our front straight is nearly 7/10th's of a mile long and the twins get yarded by the ended of it, even with better drive off turn 9.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 11:39am
Interesting... I would have thought that the drive out of the corners would compensate for the lack of revs available. Also, they make about the same hp as a GSXR750 (both stock), and what surprised me the most was the fact that they'll allow one and not the other.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 11:41am
Also, did anyone watch the last round of MotoGP?? Awesome races all around!! Not gonna spoil in case any of you guys missed it, but I highly recommend watching it!
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by educalifa

Interesting... I would have thought that the drive out of the corners would compensate for the lack of revs available. Also, they make about the same hp as a GSXR750 (both stock), and what surprised me the most was the fact that they'll allow one and not the other.

Just doesn't work in practice.  I would imagine that if someone with more talent ran one, that things might change.  But there was one that someone had thrown 30k in mods to a few years back that never won a race in 600 superbike, though it did win a bunch of open twins races I believe (this is in OMRRA).  I do think it really does come down to expense from a club racing perspective.  The working theory is to get the 848/1098 to handle properly you need new triples and a straight rate rear link and ideally the Corse swingarm (you are really limited on tires and gearing with the stock swingarm).  I'm sure a real race team would clean house with one, but club racers just aren't going to pour that kinda money into it, when they can jump on any R6 for 1/3 as much money and cut a quicker lap time.  They seem to be classified well in AMA, they carry an extra 20 pounds and that seems to make it fair, though its interesting that FIM did not allow them to run in WSS.  I saw some rumors that the next "799" will actually be a 749 to allow them to run in WSS.

1098's running with the 750's is the same thing.  EDR is getting right around 150hp out of a SS spec 750, and they rev a ton higher.  Plus they are simply a better chassis out of the box.  I'm sure a fully built 1098 could do it, just nobody is going to take the time/$$$.  There used to be a guy on a 999R that ran the 750 classes that did well, he usually beat all the 1098/1198's in open twins as well and thought the 999 series had a way better chassis out of the box.  His motor was stock too and he beat several guys on fully built 1198's that were pushing 180hp.  This is all just in my local club racing series though.  And it should be noted the past few years the person who has won the 750 SS/SBK title was riding a 600 (r6 and a zx6r if I remember right).

From speaking with the tech's at the Panigale launch party, they are expecting much better things with the new bikes.  It rev's a lot higher and the geometry stock is what you would get after changing out 2500 bucks of parts on the old bike.  Longer wheelbase, new triples, and the shock link is a progressive/straight rate stock.  You flip the link and it becomes straight rate.  Should help club racers who want to be eligible for SS classes.  Also, the new motor rev's a lot higher and the swingarm is longer and will fit all the new tire sizes without rubbing and compromising gearing options.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by educalifa

Also, did anyone watch the last round of MotoGP?? Awesome races all around!! Not gonna spoil in case any of you guys missed it, but I highly recommend watching it!

Absolutely awesome!  I'm about to start streaming the Moto 3 and Moto 2 races in a second, but I heard about the GP race and watched that first.  

What the hell is wrong with Spies this season?  I'm pretty sure Crutchlow is going to take his factory ride next year.  I haven't seen a single race where he looked like he was confident on his machine.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 12:57pm
No idea what's happening to Spies... but it is odd. You can't just switch talent on the same way you can't just switch it off. They even gave him a new chassis and nothing...
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/20/2012 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by educalifa

No idea what's happening to Spies... but it is odd. You can't just switch talent on the same way you can't just switch it off. They even gave him a new chassis and nothing...

Gotta be a mental issue of sorts.  I wonder if something is happening in his personal life or something.  Just doesn't even look like the same guy on the bike.

His father posts on the WERA forum, but never seems to really give any insight.  
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/21/2012 at 2:20am
Yeah, I get that. What I don't get is why... it's not like he suffered a massive accident or anything. I mean, he did have some consecutive nasty crashes towards the end of last season but it wasn't anything 'career ending' IMO.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/21/2012 at 1:02pm
Yeah, I have no idea what's up with Spies either. Every race i watch, I keep expecting his performance to improve. I just don't understand how Jorge is going so good and he's going so poorly on the same bike.
 
The race was okay. I don't really care for wet races that much. I'm sure Perdrosa hated it, but Rossi seemed to be having a good time.
 
I could help thinking if Stoners announcement is going to affect his drive and desire for the remainder of the season with "short timers" disease. I can't imagine he's not thinking about having a bad crash, this close to the end of his career.
 
Moto2 was even crazier with so many more riders, but still I thought there were amazingly few incidents given the conditions.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2012 at 1:23pm
I seriously LOVE Moto2! My favourite race to watch. Even more so than MotoGP, I think...

There's a guy here that owns 2 ex-Moto2 bike (Sutters if I'm not mistaken) and might even race then in a couple of weeks in the 600's class where everything goes I was talking about. Apparently they're a $#% to get the setup right.

Awesome bit of gear but for what he paid for them you could by a fleet of ZX6Rs! hahaha
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/23/2012 at 6:17pm
Suter will sell you the chassis directly, you don't have to have any special connections.  That and any CBR600 motor will bolt right in.  Trust me, if I won the lotto, that would be one of the first things I did!  I can't imagine how much fun that must be.

Oh, and gotta give a shout out to Jake Holden for snagging a one of ride in WSBK for Miller.  I hope he does well since the team is putting Taylor Knapp on the ESP BMW for the AMA races.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2012 at 1:11am
He actually bought them off one of the teams, fully setup and etc... Let's just say GFC didn't quite affect his business! hahaha
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/05/2012 at 1:04pm
Any thoughts on the Catalunya MotoGP? Is Stoners desire gone or just and off weekend? Is Spies improving but just having bad luck? Did anyone watch the broadcast to the end and see the crazy post race celebration? What was that stuff?
 
How about AMA at Elkhart lake? I thought this was one of the more boring races of the season. The track looks great, but maybe doesn't produce good races. I remember better races there in years past though. The Suzuki and Hondas are looking long in the tooth, but why aren't the BMWs, Ducatis and Kawasaki's doing better as in WSB? Even the EBR is doing okay. Or is it just the riders? How long until Cardenas hops onto a big bike?
 
No Sig... I'm just not that witty or creative
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/05/2012 at 7:55pm
Just got through with DSB race 1, about to watch Race 2 in a second and then catch the SBK/SS action last.  Still haven't caught up with GP's either, too much playoff basketball on lately.

As far as why the other guys aren't doing anything in SBK, money, and lots of it.  Yoshirmira Suzuki and Grave's Yamaha are probably running budgets double or triple what any other team in the paddock is.  They are the only ones running Marelli ECU's for example, while everyone else is using kit ECU's and Bazzaz for the most part, thats literally 300 grand difference right there (by the time you pay the engineer to tweak it for the whole season).  The AMA is trying to push a cap on electronics for next year (18 grand for SBK, 7500 for DSB, forget what SS is) and guess who the only two teams who are objecting to it are?  Yamaha even threatened to leave the series.

As far as I understand it, the BMW Chassis is funky and doesn't do well without major mods, plus Pegram, while a great racer, simply isn't as fast as the front runners.  The Kawi's geometry is off in AMA form, the swingarm is too short and they have a hard time getting it to finish corners, even though it makes tons of power.  In WSBK they use a swingarm nearly an inch longer.  Nobody has the $$$ to run a Ducati, and Ducati isn't giving any support to AMA right now.  Buell has a brilliant mind to work the chassis, and he absolutely HAS to get success in AMA or his brand won't make it, so I think you are seeing the result of one man's pure passion to succeed working well for that team.

Cardenas ran in SBK last year, he won that wet race and did all right, but the sponsorship dollars weren't there to keep running a superbike effort and he got paid a ton more by Geico to take Eslick's spot back in DSB.  Basically, whatever Eslick did to piss off Geico at that corporate function last year, cost him a TON of money.  Especially when there are only a handful of paying rides right now.

Its interesting, I see similarities with Cardenas and Hayes right now.  Both seem to be the class of their field by far.  Haye's even outright said he wants to go to the world stage in an interview over the weekend, but again it comes down to $$$$ and he is getting paid well right now and it would be tough to give that up.  Just not much money in racing like there used to be when Mladdin was getting 8 million per.  I heard somewhere that Hayes pulled in about 350k winning the title last year.  While thats not chump change, its crazy to think that 3 years ago someone was literally making over 20x that to do the same thing.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/06/2012 at 1:05pm
Ya, that's a big difference in money. Sign of the times, I suppose.
 
I thought Hayes said he basically turned off all the electronics aids. Maybe he's started using them, but I'm surprised Yamaha is protesting the cap on electronics spending. I think we do need the race teams out there doing development figuring out what works. Where else is the factory going to learn that?
 
Interesting thoughts on the BMW and Kawi chassis' and handling. What about the Honda?
 
Which do you think is the best on-track liter bike? I was thinking about saving up for a BMW, but I'm still worried they'll just stop making them one day. Parts availability and knowledgeable support is still just budding compared to Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda.
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  Quote Lux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/06/2012 at 1:55pm
What do you folks think of Aprilia motorbikes? There's a dealer nearby and Aprilia keeps coming up in discussions about more exclusive motorcycle brands.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/06/2012 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by dking

Ya, that's a big difference in money. Sign of the times, I suppose.
 
I thought Hayes said he basically turned off all the electronics aids. Maybe he's started using them, but I'm surprised Yamaha is protesting the cap on electronics spending. I think we do need the race teams out there doing development figuring out what works. Where else is the factory going to learn that?
 
Interesting thoughts on the BMW and Kawi chassis' and handling. What about the Honda?
 
Which do you think is the best on-track liter bike? I was thinking about saving up for a BMW, but I'm still worried they'll just stop making them one day. Parts availability and knowledgeable support is still just budding compared to Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda.

Hayes turned it on this year finally.  He was pretty adamant about not using it in years past.  Not sure if he was looking to gain experience for the future or what.  I remember him telling me in person that he didn't even know what half the switches on his clip ons did with that crap on the bike.  But he admitted during interviews for Daytona he was using it now.

As far as the cap on electronics, I'm for it.  Puts more teams on the grid.  The thing is the cap as its proposed now isn't going to work.  The cap is merely on the hardware costs, you still need a technician and software thats going to run a few hundred thousand dollars to utilize so in effect, its not going to do anything.  I would try and modify the wording that you had to use a publicly available kit ECU from the factory and ditch wheelspeed sensors/GPS.  The OEM's can still develop whatever they need to chassis/engine wise and honestly the electronics that AMA are using are still WAAAAAAY behind what they are using in WSBK and Moto GP where they are actually developing stuff.  I like the new BSB rules with a spec ECU (Motec with anti wheelie and traction control disabled).

As far as best track 1000?  Whatever makes you horniest.  People are winning all kinds of trophies in club racing on just about all of them.  There isn't really a difference until you are trying to win an AMA title or something.  I can summarize what some of the builders/racers I've chatted with have said (I'm going off memory here)

BMW - most power stock, parts cost $$$ and can't get any when you crash.  Nobody has figured out the exact combo on the suspension at AMA level.  Doesn't mean people aren't winning at the club level on them (AFM guy is killing it on one now).  Engine is fragile and so is the gearbox (supposedly solved with aftermarket rearsets).  Traction control etc is kind of first generation.  Cuts in and out pretty abruptly, fast guys turn it off.  If you want to really tune it, gotta buy the BMW race electronics which are 4 grand.  Good friend of mine has one for a trackbike, hasn't had any problems with it and loves it.

Aprilia - Supposedly has the best chassis.  Except nobody else races one, so you are on your own for setup (their WSBK team claims the chassis that Biaggi is on is totally stock other than the swingarm).  Parts take forever, also outside of the race ECU, tuning them is kind of a bitch because they use some funky ish with their electronics so you can't get full control with normal piggyback ECU's (some really complicated thing about 3d mapping and torque vectoring that is above my level of comprehension), way faster than the dyno's would suggest.  Best traction control, but if you are chasing lap records you end up turning it off anyway.  If you want to fully tune the engine and TC, gotta buy the APX2 which is something like 5 grand.  Engines are sort of an unknown but historically Aprilia motors are pretty solid.

Suzuki - the 11's blow up with stunning regularity around here due to our really long straight and a lack of oiling properly on the crank.  Not sure if they solved this on the 12's, but there are some changes so hopefully.  Everyone knows the chassis, setup and parts.  Not the most power stock, but easy to get a bunch out of them.  Probably the safest pick if the engine problem is indeed fixed on the 12

Honda - Best chassis behind the Aprilia (Honda's WSBK also claims they use a stock chassis).  Makes the least power and not much on the top end (My AMA bike with a bunch of titanium HRC goodness made less power than any GSXR or Kawi SS build on the same dyno by about 10-20hp)  Still easily enough to wheelie at 150 mph though.  Previous track record holder at PIR went from his SS engined GSXR 1000 to a CBR for a season and set a new record with only 168hp vs 188.

Kawi - Kick ass engine and a chassis that seems like it should do really well once figured out.  Attack just released a new rear link that supposedly helps a ton with finishing corners off.  Basically gotta set the wheelbase as long as possible and play with the triple angle. Kawi's race parts are the cheapest and the engine's are rock solid.  Plus they make as much power as the BMW with none of the reliability issues.

Eric Dorn over at EDR will tell everyone who listens that if you want the best track 1000 to find an 05-06 GSXR 1000.  Oddly enough, Ben Spies said it was his favorite bike ever as well.  Apparently the chassis is just right and the engine is only a couple horsepower down on the new ones and makes more torque with no reliability issues.  The 07-08 engine makes more up top, but the chassis was a step back.  

All heresy and opinions though, not to be confused with fact.

Edit: was at the shop today actually and the new issue of RRW came out with the 1000cc track test.  The zx10 and Aprilia blew up and didn't finish, Ducati wouldn't let them put anything but pirelli's on the Panigale, BMW won and GSXR took second (ZX10 beat the BMW last year, but blew up and came last this year).  Second point was that the shop owner noted that suddenly the Kawi Kit racing bearing's for the ZX10 are backordered and several others are complaining about blow motors.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/06/2012 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Lux

What do you folks think of Aprilia motorbikes? There's a dealer nearby and Aprilia keeps coming up in discussions about more exclusive motorcycle brands.

I personally love them and want to hump the tailpipe of an RSV4 first chance I get.  The old twins are crazy reliable.  Haven't messed around with any of their other models, other than the SXV I have, which honestly shouldn't have ever been sold as a streetbike.  Its a race bike pure and simple, oil changes every ride, valve checks every 30 hours and tear down the engine every year.
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/07/2012 at 1:16pm
Thanks for the detailed response. Interestingly enough, I have an '05 GSX-R1k and I get plenty of similar responses when out and about.
 
All of the stuff you mention about the BMW and Aprilla are the same reasons I'm hesitant to get one. Maybe in a few years, of course maybe by then the Zook will be refined as well.
 
I'd like to have ABS and TC. I know I can't really add ABS, and I already have a PCIII with quick shifter, but is the Bazzazz worth the upgrade just for the TC? Or is there another piggyback or race ECU with TC that's a better choice?
No Sig... I'm just not that witty or creative
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/07/2012 at 1:54pm
PM me your email address and I can send you a PDF article detailing a racers season setting up the Bazzaz, but I'll try and summarize it here if anyone else is curious.

Here is the problem with the Bazzaz and any other crank based TC.  Its more like a suspension component, basically have to tune it to the track and conditions you are riding in.  Say for instance you know there is a particular corner that gives you fits.  I'll use my home track as an example, the back "straight" is really a half mile corner that is crowned because it used to be a street.  You take it flat out, but due to the angle, the crowning and speed you end up spinning up on a 1000 and drifting to the outside, which is deadly because you are now on the other side of the crown and it wants to push you further into the grass.  So you know you are coming through here at the top of 4th, you tune the Bazzaz to retard any massive crank acceleration at the top of fourth gear (local racers do just this).  But its just for that one gear, in that one instance, you have to tune it by gear and RPM for every part of the track.  It doesn't have GPS, so it only goes by gear/RPM.  So if you need to tune that same area for another part of the track, you gotta decide which is more important.  Go to a different track, or wet day and all these settings are off (they have two maps, most use rain/dry to help here).  So with proper playing around with it, yeah, you can be pretty effective with it and lower your lap times.

To get a more effective TC you need to have wheelspeed sensors (Aprilia and ZX10 have this stock).  The cheapest aftermarket one I know of is the Nemesis system which is 2500 bucks just for the parts, and you gotta find somebody who knows how to actually tune it and make slip charts.  Read up at this link for a much better explanation http://durbahn.de/Web-Nemesis.htm

In my own experience with Jake's bike, he had it turned nearly off.  He told me flat out if I thought I was wacking the throttle open at full lean I would end up in the stands.  Watching and speaking with a lot of people I tend to notice that people who use the factory ones a lot (several ZX10 and S1000rr guys) aren't that fast.  Guys who are fast on those bikes turn it off because it slows them down too much.  They aren't designed for use with race tires (supposedly you can flash the Aprilia to some kind of Euro race setting that gives you 4 more levels below "1" on the TC and is MUCH better).

Overall, I would just work on throttle control.  Josh Hayes said once "Traction control only slows you down".  I think a ton of people want it on their bikes because its the latest/coolest thing, but stuff at the consumer level is just more expensive than its worth unless you get the Nemesis setup and have a guy with you at the track making adjustments for you.

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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/07/2012 at 10:37pm
I'd have a TC on a 1000 but there's no way I'd ever need ABS on race bike. Even on a road bike I don't REALLY see the need. I've never, ever, eeeeeeeeeeeever, locked the brakes on my bike. It'll flip me over the bars before that. And even when I had the front end push (or crash, really) the ABS wouldn't have saved me 'cause it was much more due to having to much weight on the front tire than anything else.

In fact, both times I crashed after losing the front, I wasn't on the brakes.
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/08/2012 at 6:31am
You don't brake like this educalifa?  (skip to the 2:30 mark)


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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/09/2012 at 4:43pm
hahahaha yeah... someone sent me this video earlier this week. Talk about ambitions outweighing talents, hey?! Dude seems to have target fixated as well... could have eased off a little and gotten the rear wheel down way before any of that.

But no, I DO NOT brake like that! lol
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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 8:00am
WSBK race 1 was awesome this weekend!  I'm still behind on the previous BSB round, thats coming up next.

educalifa, did you get that chatter worked out yet?
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  Quote dking Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 12:57pm
WSBK races were decent. Race 1 was better with changes in the top five-six pretty much all race long. Race 2 was good for 2nd place. F1 race was even better, but I won't get into that here.
 
Seems like adding TC to an older bike is more of a headache than I want to deal with. I don't really need it and don't really want to spend the time trying to get it tuned up. It doesn't sound like anything currently offerend OEM is in a much better state. Guess I'll just wait for it to evolve.
 
I really want ABS more for the street than the track. I agree it's pretty hard to over brake on the track. But with varied conditions on the street, I'd like the safetly cushon. One of the few crashes I've had on the street was losing the front panic braking when a car cut across three lanes to try and make an exit right in front of me. ABS may or may not have helped, but I can't help but wonder.
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  Quote educalifa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/11/2012 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by shakazulu


educalifa, did you get that chatter worked out yet?



Chatter is gone... not sure for how long though. I installed the Kawasaki Kit ECU on my bike over the weekend. Changing the harnesses was PITA since I also had the Bazzaz in the there and no diagram to follow.

Best part was that nowhere in the instructions it mentions I need a fuel pump relay that doesn't actually come with the kit. Thank you Kawasaki...

Another $50 later and the part should be here tomorrow. @$!@$)%@@


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  Quote Shakazulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/12/2012 at 11:32am
Thought I would post this video from the first round of racing at Ridge Motorsports park.  I can't wait to ride this track!  One thing to note, you will see people missing apexes, its because the final layer of asphalt isn't down yet and the corners of the track have a ton of tarsnakes on them.  Some are a little more brave about this than others.

Looks like the current track record is around 1:41, set on an R6.  Though that will surely drop a ton as they get more time on the track and people start learning the lines/setup.

Oh and new suit gets in tomorrow, can't wait!

Not sure why it won't let me upload the video on the forum








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