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2012 Presidential Election

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  Quote NickinChicago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2012 Presidential Election
    Posted: Sep/01/2012 at 11:05am
Originally posted by jon98gn

I'm surprised that the articles didn't bring up the usage of Filibusters by Congress. NickInCongress one of the major problems of late is that nothing even gets voted on because of the Filibuster. Even if you can claim, the Democrats have a majority, unless they can get a 2/3rds vote (they don't have enough Democrats seated to do this, even counting the blue dog ones), they cannot even bring up legislation to be voted on. The stats on how many times the filibuster was used is astounding and is probably the primary reason that this is a Do Nothing Legislature.

Again, it is not just republicans that are doing nothing. Good old Harry won't allow anything to be voted on in the Senate. Both sides are doing nothing in Congress while the jackass in the white house sits there with no clue how to bring them together. Hell I am no fan of Clinton but at least he was able to work with the other side. 
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  Quote twolf123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 12:06am
has anyone kept up with the RNC? because the entire week felt like they were just bashing obama and never really talked about what they were going to do/how they planned on implement it...the entire campaign just feels...so...vile...

i don't know how anyone can vote for the republican candidates...i understand how someone can NOT vote for obama...but...mitt?
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 6:33am
Originally posted by twolf123

has anyone kept up with the RNC? because the entire week felt like they were just bashing obama and never really talked about what they were going to do/how they planned on implement it...the entire campaign just feels...so...vile...

i don't know how anyone can vote for the republican candidates...i understand how someone can NOT vote for obama...but...mitt?


This is why: Mitt Romney - A Human Building Who Built That
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  Quote snowj720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 7:04am
I don't know how any of us vote for either choice.  We're always offered someone that doesn't understand/care about us- the average people.  People blow Mitt because he's a self made man.  As if he started with nothing.  He was the son of a governor and went to an exclusive private school (it doesn't matter your money, you have to be invited to attend it).  I'd say those two things aren't a common starting point for most people.  People like him only understand how to take advantage of the disinfranchised and less fortunate.  But, since this country is run on the old "He who has the gold..." theroy we'll never get a common peasant in charge.  No, I dont' know a thing about business, but I do know that screwing the people that make up your "kingdom" and starting wars you don't have money for aren't a smart business model (that was 43's fault, not Mitten or Obam-uh).
 
 
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  Quote bhswrestler150 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 7:08am
It comes down to 2 choices for me. Do you want the opportunity to work your ass off and make the life you want for yourself, or do u want to coastal along and stick your hand out wait g for a check from the government......
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 9:05am
Originally posted by bhswrestler150

It comes down to 2 choices for me. Do you want the opportunity to work your ass off and make the life you want for yourself, or do u want to coastal along and stick your hand out wait g for a check from the government......


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  Quote twolf123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 1:05pm
it's not either choice! you HAVE a choice if you don't subscribe to the two party system! it DOES NOT have to be this way!

for starters, don't tell someone they're stupid for voting a certain way...*COUGH NICKIN*COUGH*...

even if "that other guy" won't win, you vote for him to make a statement! this is how ron paul has even come this far! (along with his ridiculously good health for being as old as he is! it's a shame that his son doesn't have as big balls as he does...or at least he isn't as charismatic)
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  Quote bhswrestler150 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 1:23pm
Twolf

If you were to introduce a 3rd party what would it stand for?
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  Quote bhswrestler150 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 1:24pm
And namsapalosa what's your point?
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  Quote twolf123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/02/2012 at 11:13pm
@bhwrestler:

wait what?...is this one of those dumb history questions that you do at the end of the textbook?
or do you mean which 3rd party is worth voting for? honestly, green party is worth it because the guy who USUALLY wins the nom (nader), isn't actually corrupt/he's consistent AND...he doesn't subscribe to the same politics that everyone plays *cough*boehner/christie/etc.

SPEAKING OF CHRISTIE...who will probably run in 2016, that man is a fat douche for putting down california voters the way he did in the RNC. he basically called us dumb for voting for brown over that other candidate who's rich and is now CEO of HP (i don't remember her name and i don't care)...the fact that he's THAT disrespectful to voters and "fellow americans" (maybe not his fellows...) kinda tells me he shouldn't hold an office in the first place.
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/03/2012 at 8:11am
Originally posted by bhswrestler150

And namsapalosa what's your point?


My point is this:

Most of us work our asses off. Personally, I don't know anyone in my family or my circle of friends/acquaintances who is a slacker. And still, chances that I'm going to turn into the next Warren Buffet are extremely slim. It's just statistics.

So, why would I want to make life for myself and for other average, hard-working people needlessly hard just because there's this remotest of remote possibilities that I will be a billionaire some day?

Also consider this: studies have determined that in order to be happy, you really only need about 75,000 dollars a year. With that sort of a salary you'll live a comfortable life and be able to afford vacations. Sounds like a pretty nice deal to me. Anything you earn over that, doesn't make you any happier. So what's the point of making 20 million dollars a year if you're still just as happy as the guy who's making 75,000?

And by the way, absolutely nobody gets a check from the government for doing nothing. You have to work at least a little bit in order for the government to help you out. And beyond that, if you were to ask Warren Buffet or Bill Gates, for instance, I'm sure they wouldn't mind paying a little extra in taxes to subsidize those government checks. Progressive taxes don't scare those guys because they're making so much money that the government taking just a bit more doesn't even really factor in for them.
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  Quote NickinChicago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/03/2012 at 11:59am
Originally posted by namsapalooza

Originally posted by twolf123

has anyone kept up with the RNC? because the entire week felt like they were just bashing obama and never really talked about what they were going to do/how they planned on implement it...the entire campaign just feels...so...vile...

i don't know how anyone can vote for the republican candidates...i understand how someone can NOT vote for obama...but...mitt?


This is why: Mitt Romney - A Human Building Who Built That

Using the Daily Show as your source is as bad as using wikipedia. You fail.
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  Quote NickinChicago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/03/2012 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by namsapalooza

Originally posted by bhswrestler150

And namsapalosa what's your point?


My point is this:

Most of us work our asses off. Personally, I don't know anyone in my family or my circle of friends/acquaintances who is a slacker. And still, chances that I'm going to turn into the next Warren Buffet are extremely slim. It's just statistics.

So, why would I want to make life for myself and for other average, hard-working people needlessly hard just because there's this remotest of remote possibilities that I will be a billionaire some day?

Also consider this: studies have determined that in order to be happy, you really only need about 75,000 dollars a year. With that sort of a salary you'll live a comfortable life and be able to afford vacations. Sounds like a pretty nice deal to me. Anything you earn over that, doesn't make you any happier. So what's the point of making 20 million dollars a year if you're still just as happy as the guy who's making 75,000?

And by the way, absolutely nobody gets a check from the government for doing nothing. You have to work at least a little bit in order for the government to help you out. And beyond that, if you were to ask Warren Buffet or Bill Gates, for instance, I'm sure they wouldn't mind paying a little extra in taxes to subsidize those government checks. Progressive taxes don't scare those guys because they're making so much money that the government taking just a bit more doesn't even really factor in for them.

Sorry but your way of thinking is what is wrong with part of America. A study is now the deciding factor on what makes you happy or not? That might be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of.

Also I'm not sure where you are getting your facts but there really are people who get checks and do nothing at all. Sorry someone told you otherwise but they were wrong. Or are you considering having to go down to the welfare office doing something? 

People that think like you make me sick.
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  Quote giftedhands Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/03/2012 at 1:11pm
this is exactly why i avoid most political conversations. The idea that 'anybody who disagrees with me, is whats wrong with america'. the consistent name calling. anytime i see someone from either side, start parroting on with cute buzzwords like obamacare, dummycrats, repubtards.. I instantly know they're not interested in an intelligent conversation.. they only want to bludgeon you with their perspective. They hit up peoplewhoagreewithmywayofthinking.com, throw some random quotes at you, and should you disagree.. well then you're a moron. 

beyond the political rhetoric, this country is far more complex than politics care to realize. Many republican women get abortions. Many democrats love their church. And there's a ton of shared ideas, that neither party will admit, depending on the political conversation for the day. I think the fact that things like abortion can be used as a political tool, is just ridiculous. The way some people talk about it.. as if having an abortion is such an easy decision.. blows my mind. Might be the current 24 hour news cycle, but it weirds me out how people can focus on the most individual of things. I think we all owe it ourselves to go to the CBO and check out exactly where your tax dollars go. For every buck you spend in taxes, how many pennies do you think goes to welfare? fixing roads? defense? You might be surprised where your tax dollars are going. I love sociology, so consequently politics are very interesting to me.. but moreso in a people watching sense. the 12 pages so far of this thread have been as hilarious as they have been telling.

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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/04/2012 at 4:28am
Originally posted by giftedhands

this is exactly why i avoid most political conversations. The idea that 'anybody who disagrees with me, is whats wrong with america'. the consistent name calling. anytime i see someone from either side, start parroting on with cute buzzwords like obamacare, dummycrats, repubtards.. I instantly know they're not interested in an intelligent conversation.. they only want to bludgeon you with their perspective. They hit up peoplewhoagreewithmywayofthinking.com, throw some random quotes at you, and should you disagree.. well then you're a moron. 
beyond the political rhetoric, this country is far more complex than politics care to realize. Many republican women get abortions. Many democrats love their church. And there's a ton of shared ideas, that neither party will admit, depending on the political conversation for the day. I think the fact that things like abortion can be used as a political tool, is just ridiculous. The way some people talk about it.. as if having an abortion is such an easy decision.. blows my mind. Might be the current 24 hour news cycle, but it weirds me out how people can focus on the most individual of things. I think we all owe it ourselves to go to the CBO and check out exactly where your tax dollars go. For every buck you spend in taxes, how many pennies do you think goes to welfare? fixing roads? defense? You might be surprised where your tax dollars are going. I love sociology, so consequently politics are very interesting to me.. but moreso in a people watching sense. the 12 pages so far of this thread have been as hilarious as they have been telling.


I hadn't thought about looking at exactly how tax money is spent actually. Thanks for mentioning that. I knew a lot was being spent on defense, but this is a bit ridiculous:

Of every income-tax dollar
- 42.2 cents are spent on military
- 22.1 cent are spent on health
- 10.2 cents on interest on non-military debt
- 8.7 cents on anti-poverty programs
- 4.4 cents on education, training & social services
- 3.9 cents on government & law enforcement
- 3.3 cents on housing & community development
- 2.6 cents on environment, energy & science
- 1.5 cents on agriculture, commerce & transportation
- 1 cent on international affairs

The numbers are from CNBC, I hope they're reliable.

According to the Office of Management and Budget just over 50 cents are allocated to military. You'll have to figure out the percentages on Table 5.6 over here. I guess these percentages will vary depending on which spending categories are considered and how they're computed.



UPDATED TO CORRECT TYPO.
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  Quote twolf123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/04/2012 at 10:49pm
CORRECTING FOR NAMSAPALOOZA, he means 22.1 cents for *HEALTH*, not military.

on another note, im QUITE surprised to see education higher than a lot of the other departments...very surprised...
on another note, it's too bad cutting military spending is such a farking taboo...it's the only thing we could EASILY cut back on but NOPE...

regardless of who becomes or stays president, damn i hope we don't get into another war...

@nickin: wikipedia is A WONDERFUL PLACE...just use the citations on the bottom! seriously!
and, honestly, i think dailyshow works wonders...so long it's treated as an opinion. it makes fun of what's happening in the world and doesn't LIE about it like some outlets (fox news)
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2012 at 2:27am
Originally posted by twolf123

CORRECTING FOR NAMSAPALOOZA, he means 22.1 cents for *HEALTH*, not military.

on another note, im QUITE surprised to see education higher than a lot of the other departments...very surprised...
on another note, it's too bad cutting military spending is such a farking taboo...it's the only thing we could EASILY cut back on but NOPE...

regardless of who becomes or stays president, damn i hope we don't get into another war...

@nickin: wikipedia is A WONDERFUL PLACE...just use the citations on the bottom! seriously!
and, honestly, i think dailyshow works wonders...so long it's treated as an opinion. it makes fun of what's happening in the world and doesn't LIE about it like some outlets (fox news)


Whoops thanks for pointing out the error. I'll change it, so as not to cause any confusion in future.

Btw I think the current administration is trying to reduce the military budget as best it can. It's just that wars that were started by the previous administration have to be finished properly. Once that's done (which I think they will hopefully be by the end of 2014), things should improve there. Now if the Republicans win the election I should think spending on the military will increase further. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to get involved in Iran as well and then you're really looking at more military spending.
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  Quote scuddera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2012 at 6:05am
did anyone else want to vomit last night watching the the democrat rally. Im gonna be sick all day even thinking about it
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  Quote MTpow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2012 at 6:18am
Originally posted by scuddera

did anyone else want to vomit last night watching the the democrat rally. Im gonna be sick all day even thinking about it


And the RNC made you feel good?  yikes.
MOAR powderz plz!
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  Quote twolf123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2012 at 12:49pm
@scuddera:
STOP IT, STOP MAKING IT BAD, WE WERE CIVIL A FEW POSTS BACK!!!...YOU MAKE WOMEN AND CHILDREN CRY. AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD.

SPEAKING OF WHICH...michelle obama made ann romney's speech look amateurish :3...however, in ann's defense, chris christie basically destroyed her speech...
also, in your defense i guess, dems don't seem very ballsy...and fox news isn't attacking this as hard as it could...
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  Quote Cooperla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2012 at 1:07pm
I didn't see this posted here yet, and it made me laugh.  Trying to bring a little levity to this very serious discussion...
 
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  Quote SoCalRyder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/05/2012 at 1:36pm
People please reread giftedhands reply.

I've quoted it for those who, like me, dont read entire threads and for added emphasis:
Originally posted by giftedhands

this is exactly why i avoid most political conversations. The idea that 'anybody who disagrees with me, is whats wrong with america'. the consistent name calling. anytime i see someone from either side, start parroting on with cute buzzwords like obamacare, dummycrats, repubtards.. I instantly know they're not interested in an intelligent conversation.. they only want to bludgeon you with their perspective. They hit up peoplewhoagreewithmywayofthinking.com, throw some random quotes at you, and should you disagree.. well then you're a moron.

beyond the political rhetoric, this country is far more complex than politics care to realize. Many republican women get abortions. Many democrats love their church. And there's a ton of shared ideas, that neither party will admit, depending on the political conversation for the day. I think the fact that things like abortion can be used as a political tool, is just ridiculous. The way some people talk about it.. as if having an abortion is such an easy decision.. blows my mind. Might be the current 24 hour news cycle, but it weirds me out how people can focus on the most individual of things. I think we all owe it ourselves to go to the CBO and check out exactly where your tax dollars go. For every buck you spend in taxes, how many pennies do you think goes to welfare? fixing roads? defense? You might be surprised where your tax dollars are going. I love sociology, so consequently politics are very interesting to me.. but moreso in a people watching sense. the 12 pages so far of this thread have been as hilarious as they have been telling.


I agree with the heart of what he says. But my 2 cents: Politics, as is life and all that goes into a country/culture/society, is incredibly complex. Politicians (as well as police officers, doctors lawyers, teachers, priests etc) all come from the same society/culture that we, in America, come from. Oversimplified, to expect that these people we have voted in to be unlike some of the people, if not most or all, within our culture (or any culture/society) speaks of our ability as humans to easily overlook our, uh, human-ness.

Some of the best ways to keep opposing ideas from being received is to attack the character, credibility and intelligence of the source. You tend to see that from all sides.
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  Quote jon98gn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/10/2012 at 11:59am
isidewith "dot" com is pretty interesting if you want to see which candidate you may side with based upon principles alone. I edged out with the Green Party at 89% over Obama at 86%. I think that's mainly because I put tax and regulate marijuana which is still sort of a mixed bag for me. In some ways I feel like it's the law, why are people using it, but then I see the point of view as, people are going to use it anyway might as well regulate it. It also reminds me how ridiculously idiots people are with cigarettes, so by preference I wouldn't want people smoking in public, but once it is legalized, it may come down to disrespectful people just blowing smoke into the public air until I want it banned again.
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/11/2012 at 3:54am
Originally posted by jon98gn

isidewith "dot" com is pretty interesting if you want to see which candidate you may side with based upon principles alone. I edged out with the Green Party at 89% over Obama at 86%. I think that's mainly because I put tax and regulate marijuana which is still sort of a mixed bag for me. In some ways I feel like it's the law, why are people using it, but then I see the point of view as, people are going to use it anyway might as well regulate it. It also reminds me how ridiculously idiots people are with cigarettes, so by preference I wouldn't want people smoking in public, but once it is legalized, it may come down to disrespectful people just blowing smoke into the public air until I want it banned again.


Meh I don't think the website helps all that much. My main gripe is that it asks you about specific pieces of legislation, which you've already made your mind up about rather than asking very general questions to determine what your stance on various pieces of legislation should be.
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  Quote jon98gn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/11/2012 at 9:59am
Are you being sarcastic? According to the Daily Show you should watch Fox News as their new slogan should be "shut up and watch" Apparently they are very good at telling you what you should believe.
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  Quote motoxninja80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/11/2012 at 4:45pm
There are plenty of people manipulating the welfare system in this country. On the other hand there are also quite a few people who are getting back on their feet.
I wish everyone would just vote third party to show how sick of a bipartisan government we are.
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/13/2012 at 3:02am
Originally posted by jon98gn

Are you being sarcastic? According to the Daily Show you should watch Fox News as their new slogan should be "shut up and watch" Apparently they are very good at telling you what you should believe.


I'm a bit confused. I'll try to explain what I dislike about the site by using an example. For instance, one of the questions asks "Do you support the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obamacare)?". My first problem is that they even bring up the term Obamacare. If you've been watching Fox News or the likes, chances are that those news sources have already trained you to hate the program. Quite possibly without really, truly understanding the nuances of the ACA.

I'd have preferred if the questions were like this: "Do you think that you should be able to get health insurance even if you have a pre-existing condition?" And similar individual things that are addressed by the ACA.

By asking those kinds of questions, it will tell you what your stance should be. Otherwise, I think people will pick a side based on what they've heard about these hot-button issues from various news outlets. Obviously this doesn't apply to all of the questions, but for some of them, I think it would help to separate the content from the value-laden name.


Unrelated, but I think it's a very interesting read. An op-ed piece in the New York Times from Sept 9, 2012 about Paul Ryan's proposed budget. It talks about how Ryan has cleverly managed to hide $897 billion dollars in cuts by including them in a 'miscellaneous' category. These cuts would affect programs such as "education, food and drug inspection, workplace safety, environmental protection and law enforcement". Sounds like a dangerous place to be cutting pretty much anything and for a guy who keeps claiming he's more honest than Abe Lincoln, he sure is good at obfuscating. Here's the whole piece.

The Ryan Sinkhole
By THOMAS B. EDSALL


Unlike the Republican platform, which has mostly been ignored outside of the abortion issue, the Paul Ryan budget is the core document of the 2012 campaign. It is the most explicit expression of the Republican agenda, endorsed by the party’s presidential candidate, Mitt Romney, and backed by decisive majorities of House and Senate Republicans.

That much is known. What people have not been talking about enough is that the Ryan budget contains an $897 billion sinkhole: massive but unexplained cuts in such discretionary domestic programs as education, food and drug inspection, workplace safety, environmental protection and law enforcement.

The scope of the cuts – stunning in their breadth — is hidden. To find the numbers, turn to page 16 of the Concurrent Resolution on the Budget – Fiscal Year 2013. In Table 2, Fiscal Year 2013 Budget Resolution Discretionary Spending, in the far right hand column, you’ll see the nearly $897 billion figure, which appears on the line marked “BA” for Budget Authority under Allowances (920) as $896,884 (because these figures are listed in millions of dollars).

According to the House Budget Committee, of which Ryan is the chairman:

    The federal budget is divided into approximately 20 categories known as budget functions. These functions include all spending for a given topic, regardless of the federal agency that oversees the individual federal program. Both the president’s budget, submitted annually, and Congress’ budget resolution, passed annually, comprise these approximately 20 functions.

Within the 20 “budget functions” lurks — at number 19 — “Function 920.” In a masterpiece of bureaucratic obscurantism, the explanation provided by budget committee reads as follows:

    FUNCTION 920: ALLOWANCES

    Function 920 represents a category called “allowances” that captures the budgetary effects of cross-cutting proposals or contingencies that impact multiple functions rather than one specific area of the budget. It also represents a place-holder category for any budgetary impacts that the Congressional Budget Office has yet to assign to a specific budget function. C.B.O. typically reassigns the budgetary effects of any legislation enacted within Function 920 once a new baseline update is released.

The importance of the nearly $1 trillion in unexplained and unspecified cuts that Ryan and the Republican party are proposing, under the catch-all rubric of “Function 920: Allowances,” cannot be overestimated. These invisible cuts are crucial to the Republican claim that the Ryan budget proposal will drastically reduce the federal deficit (eliminating it entirely in the long run) and ultimately erase the national debt.

Ryan’s plan was passed 228-191 by the House on March 29, 2012, with no Democrats voting yes. On May 16, the Senate rejected the plan by a vote of 58-41. The vote among Senate Republicans was 41-4 in favor.

While the Ryan budget does specify cuts in programs serving the poor, many of whom are Democratic constituents (Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment benefits), it hides under the abstruse veil of “Function 920 allowances” the cuts in programs popular with many other voters.

This maneuver stands in stark contrast to Ryan’s campaign rhetoric. At a rally last Tuesday in Westlake, Ohio, Ryan declared:

    We will not duck the tough issues. We will not kick the can down the road.

Romney and Ryan have made their willingness to stand tall and to confront forthrightly the problems facing the nation a central theme of their campaign. In Ryan’s words, again from Westlake:

    We will lead. We will not blame others for four years; we will take responsibility and fix this country’s problems.

The lack of detail in the Ryan budget applies mainly to programs of importance to the voters Republicans continue to angle for, including swing voters concerned about programs like education, environmental protection and food safety.

Interviews I conducted with New Hampshire voters last month reveal the political liabilities of telling potential Republican voters exactly what the Romney-Ryan ticket intends to cut. Two voters, both Republicans, told me they could not bring themselves to vote for their party this year because the Ryan budget cuts spending for veterans’ benefits.

In an interview days after Romney announced on a Saturday that he had picked Ryan, George Lemieux said, “Based on what Romney did this weekend, I would not vote for him.” Lemieux, a 67-year-old Vietnam War veteran who spent 26 years in the Army, declared that “Ryan wants to decimate Medicare; he wants to decimate the V.A. I have a brother who is dependent on V.A. disability, and he wants to cut it out entirely.”

“The Ryan budget will kill everybody,” said Aura-Lee Nicodemus, another woman I met, who works at the V.A. Medical Center in White River Junction, Vt. and is active in the advocacy organization, Disabled American Veterans. “I’m a registered Republican and I can’t vote for Romney. His actions speak louder than words.”

There is a clear rationale for their concerns.

Under the Ryan budget, “Mandatory and Defense and Nondefense Discretionary Spending” – which includes Function 920 Allowances, but excludes Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid — would fall from 12.5 percent of Gross Domestic Product in 2011 to 6.75 percent in 2023, 5.75 percent in 2030, 4.75 percent in 2040 and 3.75 percent in 2050, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office.

The C.B.O. cautiously notes how difficult it would be to cut such spending to 3.75 percent of G.D.P.:

    By comparison, spending in this category has exceeded 8 percent of G.D.P. in every year since World War II. Spending for defense alone has not been lower than 3 percent of G.D.P. in any year during that period.

Romney, in fact, has committed himself to keeping the Pentagon budget (Function 050) at 4 percent of G.D.P. By 2050, that would leave zilch under the Ryan plan for such separately funded programs as Veterans Benefits (Function 700); the administration of justice, including the F.B.I. (Function 750); Education, Train and Social Services (Function 500), and pretty much anything else.

The big question posed by the comments of the two defecting Republicans I interviewed in New Hampshire is: are Romney and Ryan so committed to the principle of deficit reduction that they are willing, in an election year, to take on veterans? That would be extraordinary. The answer is no.

I emailed the Romney campaign. Here’s what I asked:

    Talking to voters in New Hampshire, some veterans voiced strong concerns over the scope of likely cuts to the V.A. in the Ryan budget. Has Governor Romney said what will happen to veterans’ benefits under his administration?

The campaign immediately disputed any suggestion that the ticket supported cuts in services for veterans. Here is the Romney campaign’s emailed response:

    That is false. Here are the facts:

    - The House-passed Fiscal Year 2013 budget matches the President’s discretionary request for veterans for fiscal year 2013: $61.3 billion. Over the ten-year window, the House-passed budget is actually above the President’s request on both the mandatory and discretionary side of the ledger.

    - On the mandatory side, the House Republican budget calls for $270 million more than President’s request. On the discretionary side, the House Republican budget calls for $16.4 billion more than President’s request, increasing America’s funding for services and benefits earned by veterans.

In an accompanying statement, Andrea Saul, the Romney campaign spokeswoman, said:

    Gov. Romney opposes President Obama’s plan of drastic cuts to veterans’ benefits and the military while exploding the federal budget elsewhere. President Obama’s own V.A. Secretary has admitted that Obama’s devastating defense budget cuts put veterans’ funding at risk for an arbitrary across-the-board cut. Gov. Romney and Paul Ryan are committed to keeping faith with our veterans and providing the care they so richly deserve.

Hmm. How does this fit with the deficit-reducing claims of the Ryan budget and with Ryan’s boast that “We will not duck the tough issues? We will not kick the can down the road?”

It turns out that a reading of the Ryan budget — if you don’t parse Function 920 — is deceptive. In the case of veterans’ benefits, for example, Andrea Saul’s claim that the Romney-Ryan ticket is “committed to keeping faith with our veterans” appears, on the surface, to be legitimate, because none of the mysterious Function 920 cuts show up in her computations.

If veterans’ benefits are to be protected, what programs will be on the chopping block to achieve the $897 billion in cuts listed under the mysterious “Function 920 allowances” category? Will it be education or food inspectors, air traffic controllers or homeland security?

The Ryan budget does, in fact, “duck the tough issues.” Ryan claims to be proposing major steps toward a balanced budget and long-term debt reduction, but he doesn’t really tell voters how he is going to get there.

Interestingly, the budget proposed by President Obama does specify where cuts would be made, including those called for in the Budget Control Act, the measure approved by Congress and signed into law on August 2, 2011, as part of the deal to raise the debt ceiling and to avoid default on government debt.

A statement in the Obama administration budget claims credit for making explicit the “difficult trade offs” to reach spending reduction goals:

    In the Budget Control Act, both parties in Congress and the President agreed to tight spending caps that reduce discretionary spending by $1 trillion over 10 years. This budget reflects that decision. Thus, for all the priority areas we are investing in, difficult trade-offs had to be made to meet these very tight caps. Discretionary spending is reduced from 8.7 percent of G.D.P. in 2011 to 5.0 percent in 2022.

Perhaps the most striking aspect of the omissions in the Ryan budget is the failure of Obama and other Democrats to capitalize on it.

Leading Democrats I spoke to, who refused to be identified because they did not want to be quoted faulting their own party, cited two factors limiting their ability to mount a counter-attack. First, the complexity of the issue makes it difficult for reporters to understand and write about the subject. After wading my way through all of this, I know what they mean. Second, the Ryan tactic of obscuring the cuts successfully plays to a fundamental ambivalence that amounts to an internal contradiction in public opinion: strong support for spending cuts in the abstract, but opposition to many specific cuts in programs that have popular support.

In a speech on April 3 at the Associated Press luncheon in Washington, Obama tried to make the case against Ryan well before he was picked to run for vice president. Applying the $897 billion in cuts under “Function 920 Allowances” to domestic spending programs, Obama projected a future scenario:

    The year after next, nearly 10 million college students would see their financial aid cut by an average of more than $1,000 each. There would be 1,600 fewer medical grants, research grants for things like Alzheimer’s and cancer and AIDS. There would be 4,000 fewer scientific research grants, eliminating support for 48,000 researchers, students, and teachers. Investments in clean energy technologies that are helping us reduce our dependence on foreign oil would be cut by nearly a fifth.

    If this budget becomes law and the cuts were applied evenly, starting in 2014, over 200,000 children would lose their chance to get an early education in the Head Start program. Two million mothers and young children would be cut from a program that gives them access to healthy food. There would be 4,500 fewer federal grants at the Department of Justice and the F.B.I. to combat violent crime, financial crime, and help secure our borders. Hundreds of national parks would be forced to close for part or all of the year. We wouldn’t have the capacity to enforce the laws that protect the air we breathe, the water we drink, or the food that we eat.

    Cuts to the F.A.A. would likely result in more flight cancellations, delays, and the complete elimination of air traffic control services in parts of the country. Over time, our weather forecasts would become less accurate because we wouldn’t be able to afford to launch new satellites. And that means governors and mayors would have to wait longer to order evacuations in the event of a hurricane.

Ryan, in the meantime, remains consistent. Two days after his speech in Westlake, on Sept. 6, he reiterated his claims at a rally in Colorado Springs:

    So here is our commitment. We are not going to duck the tough issues and kick the can down the road. We are going to lead and fix this mess in Washington. And we are not going to spend the next four years blaming people from the last four years. We’re going to take responsibility and get the job done, reach across the aisle and fix this problem, get people back to work, create jobs, growth.

In an interview, Christopher Van Hollen Jr. of Maryland, the ranking Democrat on the House Budget Committee, told me that the Ryan budget “is a shell game designed to hide the damage to the country.” Van Hollen is frustrated that the damage to which he alludes has not become a campaign issue: “The magnitude of this budget gimmick takes your breath away.”

Thomas B. Edsall, a professor of journalism at Columbia University, is the author of the book “The Age of Austerity: How Scarcity Will Remake American Politics,” which was published earlier this year.
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  Quote SoCalRyder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/13/2012 at 8:58am
^for an article that long a link will suffice next time.

First I agree with the gist of Nam's beef with the way questions are worded. Questions should be worded neutrally. But you see biased phrasing/wording from both sides. You would hope people would be intelligent enough to read through that. But, alas, this is america. But really it's a human nature issue. But the funny thing is the question Nam poses is biased too because of it's narrow focus. Though I know it is hard to create pol questions that match the short-attention span of us humans.

Which leads to what i find funny. Dont you think the very name of the act is a little slanted? But that's the beauty of politics/politicians. You cant defend yourself in this day of 2 second, out of context sound bites. Where a reporter asks you why you are against the "Feeding Babies, Homeless and Cute Puppies Act". When the very reason you are against it is all the pork in it. Politicians hide pork in pages of mindless verbiage all the time.

Which leads me to the next point. Does Ryan hide something in budget? Its kind of hard to hide something when its printed and you know people will scrutinize it. What politician doesn't do this kind of stuff? It has been done for ages and people point it out like its a shocking revelation that damages the other party. Bhahaha. His budget is exactly what the left have been hoping for.

I also find it interesting how up in arms people get when we discuss cuts. Have you seen the national debt? Have you been paying attention to economics on a international scale? Look at CA statistically - what we pay in taxes, how much government has expanded, what teachers are paid, what we rank in education performance etc etc. Do your own research regardless of what side you are on!!! I think you will find some pretty interesting things you didn't know about both parties. Politicians are, well, politicians. Right or left. To give them some altruistic quality is pretty naive.

And another thing on cuts. Military should be a top spend. We can get all kumbaya (which in itself is an interesting reference) but we dont live in a world where, in the words the recently departed social figure, Rodney King, "...we all just get along." History reveals this. Couple that with our decline as country and "Houston, we have a problem."

It's funny that to go from the way a question is worded to posting an "op-ed" piece from both an arguably liberal author and paper hides very little.

What the hell happen to cloning? I'm sure we have some FDR, TJ and other DNA floating around we can Frankenstein in time for the 2048 election.

Put a fork in me. I'm done with this thread. Insert applause here.
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  Quote namsapalooza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/14/2012 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by SoCalRyder

^for an article that long a link will suffice next time.

First I agree with the gist of Nam's beef with the way questions are worded. Questions should be worded neutrally. But you see biased phrasing/wording from both sides. You would hope people would be intelligent enough to read through that. But, alas, this is america. But really it's a human nature issue. But the funny thing is the question Nam poses is biased too because of it's narrow focus. Though I know it is hard to create pol questions that match the short-attention span of us humans.

Which leads to what i find funny. Dont you think the very name of the act is a little slanted? But that's the beauty of politics/politicians. You cant defend yourself in this day of 2 second, out of context sound bites. Where a reporter asks you why you are against the "Feeding Babies, Homeless and Cute Puppies Act". When the very reason you are against it is all the pork in it. Politicians hide pork in pages of mindless verbiage all the time.

Which leads me to the next point. Does Ryan hide something in budget? Its kind of hard to hide something when its printed and you know people will scrutinize it. What politician doesn't do this kind of stuff? It has been done for ages and people point it out like its a shocking revelation that damages the other party. Bhahaha. His budget is exactly what the left have been hoping for.

I also find it interesting how up in arms people get when we discuss cuts. Have you seen the national debt? Have you been paying attention to economics on a international scale? Look at CA statistically - what we pay in taxes, how much government has expanded, what teachers are paid, what we rank in education performance etc etc. Do your own research regardless of what side you are on!!! I think you will find some pretty interesting things you didn't know about both parties. Politicians are, well, politicians. Right or left. To give them some altruistic quality is pretty naive.

And another thing on cuts. Military should be a top spend. We can get all kumbaya (which in itself is an interesting reference) but we dont live in a world where, in the words the recently departed social figure, Rodney King, "...we all just get along." History reveals this. Couple that with our decline as country and "Houston, we have a problem."

It's funny that to go from the way a question is worded to posting an "op-ed" piece from both an arguably liberal author and paper hides very little.

What the hell happen to cloning? I'm sure we have some FDR, TJ and other DNA floating around we can Frankenstein in time for the 2048 election.

Put a fork in me. I'm done with this thread. Insert applause here.


I think the point of isidewith is that they're meant to be neutral, which is why I was hoping they would ask about individual issues in a neutral tone. It's supposed to be a tool, but I don't think it does that good a job. Such a quiz would really have to divvy each policy up into many smaller questions; you might agree with some and disagree with others. At the end you can find out what your overall stance ought to be. As it is I don't think a single person who takes the isidewith quiz will be surprised by the results.

Again, unrelated to the quiz, but in response to your comment about Ryan's budget. He really is hiding things. He's saying that he's going to be cutting things, literally allowances. He doesn't specify at all what these things are going to be. And it's almost a trillion worth of things. I wouldn't call that negligible.
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  Quote chillwill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2012 at 1:24pm
More votes for Obama !!!!! YAY !!!
 
 
LMAO!
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  Quote snowj720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2012 at 2:15pm
I am not too happy with either choice personally.  Obama has lied, keeping up the same bs bush policies.  The Mittster is an ultra out of touch ass munch (I'm not a fan of leverage buyouts) who claims to be self made, but come on, how many of us are governors kids that went to elite private schools growing up?  Not too many people start so "disadvantaged". 
I really liked alot about Ron Paul, aside from his anti-gay stance.  No one will ever take a canidate like him serious though as he wants to actually change things and not just blow smoke up everyones ace.
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  Quote twolf123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2012 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by snowj720

I am not too happy with either choice personally.  Obama has lied, keeping up the same bs bush policies.  The Mittster is an ultra out of touch ass munch (I'm not a fan of leverage buyouts) who claims to be self made, but come on, how many of us are governors kids that went to elite private schools growing up?  Not too many people start so "disadvantaged". 
I really liked alot about Ron Paul, aside from his anti-gay stance.  No one will ever take a canidate like him serious though as he wants to actually change things and not just blow smoke up everyones ace.

despite ron pauls "anti homosexual stance" he has proven time and again that his beliefs have no place in politics...

on that note, you also have to acknowledge that he's not going to do ANYTHING...in fact, he'll pretty much destroy the entire establishment including the cia, fbi, federal reserve (though i feel this is okay...?), department of w/e, and nasa (NOT OKAY)...BUT...we know what we're getting into if we vote for him unlike with anyone else
HOWEVER, he won't stop states from doing w/e they want soooooo...it'll be up to our governors to tax us at 50% to make up for it all ;D

eg. mitt romney is not for "redistribution of wealth" BUT he said that people with lower incomes will receive more benefits than people with higher incomes...(basically the "redistribution" he was talking about)
eg. or with obama, who promised the closing of guantanamo
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  Quote shing02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/27/2012 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by snowj720

I am not too happy with either choice personally.  Obama has lied, keeping up the same bs bush policies.  The Mittster is an ultra out of touch ass munch (I'm not a fan of leverage buyouts) who claims to be self made, but come on, how many of us are governors kids that went to elite private schools growing up?  Not too many people start so "disadvantaged". 
I really liked alot about Ron Paul, aside from his anti-gay stance.  No one will ever take a canidate like him serious though as he wants to actually change things and not just blow smoke up everyones ace.

it kinda sucks how ron paul WASN'T even considered in the battle against "not romney"...he basically had NO limelight, unlike the rest of the GOP contenders :/

i think the worst part about the election is how the debates are going to be run. it's basically 50% contributions from the GOP and 50% from the DNC, for their own screen time/circle jerk, while silencing any 3rd+ party member...
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  Quote grapeape2669 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2012 at 3:39am
Originally posted by chillwill

More votes for Obama !!!!! YAY !!!
 
 
LMAO!
That makes my head hurt.  I love how it's an Obama phone, yet the free phone thing has been around since 1997, and Bush signed the SafeLink wireless bill that allowed free cell phones to be distributed.  It's a Bush phone.
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  Quote chillwill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep/28/2012 at 7:55am
It's pretty damn sad that our only choices are Obama and Romney.
Its all a scam. The elite who own all the corporations essentially control everything.
 
 
 
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  Quote Oinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 11:05am
sunfoundation:&amp;#10;&amp;#10;Political NASCAR&amp;#10;&amp;#10;Barack Obama and John McCain have raised millions of dollars for their presidential campaigns. In  GOOD’s second installment of Political NASCAR, we look at the uniforms  the two candidates would wear if companies wanted to use their political  donations as advertisements, and if running for president ended with  the winner doing donuts on the White House lawn.&amp;#10;&amp;#10;There’s a great thread over on Reddit right now, with some good Photoshop work going on.&amp;#10;
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  Quote Oinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 11:08am

This is Who The Politicians Are Really Working For:

Obama_Romney_Graph425x425
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  Quote dvdngu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 11:09am
Never have I ever heard so many words exchanged with nothing being said.....
It was like a contest of who had the most smug smile on their face. Clap
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  Quote scuddera Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 12:27pm
^^^^ AHAHHAHAHA I loved seeing all the posts on Fb last night and today from my liberal friends saying we are all screwed in the end regardless of which person wins. Yes this is true but Mitt sh*t all over Obama last night. It was like the battle of a coke head and a stoner. One just laid back and did nothing while the other wouldnt shut up if he tried
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  Quote chillwill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 12:43pm
I can't wait till the VP debate on the 11th.
 
Everyone thinks Romney blew Obama out of the water,which he did, just wait till its Ryan debating Biden. Oh man, that should be good.  If Biden is smart, he will call in sick. LOL
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  Quote HAVEN2135 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 2:31pm
It looked like Obama had something else on his mind, he didn't even seem into the debate. Also that was the best Romney has looked. I bet Biden surprises people and does better than expected.
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  Quote mluu003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 7:49pm
I was stuck on the 25 freeway traffic in Denver and came home to catch the end of the debate. Should of paid more attention in econ and healthcare classes.

I don't know if I should vote this year because I dont know enough about the candidates and what they represent.
youtube.com/college4matt

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  Quote shing02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/04/2012 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by mluu003

I was stuck on the 25 freeway traffic in Denver and came home to catch the end of the debate. Should of paid more attention in econ and healthcare classes.

I don't know if I should vote this year because I dont know enough about the candidates and what they represent.

you have an entire month to read up on it, it's not terribly hard to do so...besides, all you would need to do is read up on it on multiple fronts, ideally not fox news unless you're getting it from shep smith because that guy is actually awesome which includes cnn, npr, aljazeera (they're better than cnn) or the AP.
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  Quote grapeape2669 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 3:26am
Originally posted by HAVEN2135

It looked like Obama had something else on his mind, he didn't even seem into the debate. Also that was the best Romney has looked. I bet Biden surprises people and does better than expected.
I heard someone on TV this morning saying that the altitude might have affected Obama.  That's about the weakest excuse ever.  But I guess you have to try to spin it somehow, because he was not sharp.  The guy is a dud.  
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  Quote mj2delmenico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 3:37am
How many people join in the debate, hold so many opinions.....and then don't even bother to vote.
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  Quote grapeape2669 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 3:44am
Originally posted by mj2delmenico

How many people join in the debate, hold so many opinions.....and then don't even bother to vote.
If we're being honest, how many people's votes legitimately count?  The majority of us live in red states or blue states.  Unless you live in a swing state, your vote for president really doesn't matter.  
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  Quote batmanwest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 4:11am
Originally posted by grapeape2669

If we're being honest, how many people's votes legitimately count?  The majority of us live in red states or blue states.  Unless you live in a swing state, your vote for president really doesn't matter.  


IMO, every vote matters as long as you are thinking for yourself, and vote for the person that you actually want to. It's when you pick "the lesser of two evils" is when your vote stops counting. Sure it will count towards the final numbers of the election, but it's when you don't vote for a person you truly believe in your vote becomes pointless.
I know it's been said many times before in this thread, and I'll slink on back out after this, but we have to stop thinking that there are only two candidates each election. Check them ALL out...or hell, pencil yourself in this year!
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  Quote snowj720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 7:27am
Originally posted by twolf123

Originally posted by snowj720

I am not too happy with either choice personally.  Obama has lied, keeping up the same bs bush policies.  The Mittster is an ultra out of touch ass munch (I'm not a fan of leverage buyouts) who claims to be self made, but come on, how many of us are governors kids that went to elite private schools growing up?  Not too many people start so "disadvantaged". 
I really liked alot about Ron Paul, aside from his anti-gay stance.  No one will ever take a canidate like him serious though as he wants to actually change things and not just blow smoke up everyones ace.

despite ron pauls "anti homosexual stance" he has proven time and again that his beliefs have no place in politics...

on that note, you also have to acknowledge that he's not going to do ANYTHING...in fact, he'll pretty much destroy the entire establishment including the cia, fbi, federal reserve (though i feel this is okay...?), department of w/e, and nasa (NOT OKAY)...BUT...we know what we're getting into if we vote for him unlike with anyone else
HOWEVER, he won't stop states from doing w/e they want soooooo...it'll be up to our governors to tax us at 50% to make up for it all ;D

eg. mitt romney is not for "redistribution of wealth" BUT he said that people with lower incomes will receive more benefits than people with higher incomes...(basically the "redistribution" he was talking about)
eg. or with obama, who promised the closing of guantanamo
His beliefs have no place in politricks because it's all a game/business.  No he wouldn't get anything done because the system is set up to butt heads and accomplish nothing.  If he had his way though there'd be a lot of b.s. shut down and politians would be there to serve the people and not themselves and rich buddies. 
I know he's not perfect, there's other issues other than the homosexual thing that I don't really like (there's some government agencies I think we need- usda, fda, epa, nasa, etc.), but he's miles from the other morons giving us the same lies (i.e.- gitmo, we still have troops overseas, still falling further into debt). 
What type of benefits was Mitt talking about?  Welfare?  I just don't like the guy.  I can't trust a cultist to be in charge of us, not that the prez does anything really (hell, Obama has spent more time on talk shows than he has fixing a damn thing).
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Skio25 View Drop Down
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  Quote Skio25 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 10:02am
Anyone else sick of logging into facebook just to see a billion status updates about politics? At least here we have it consolidated to one big argument thread.
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  Quote JDiggidy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/05/2012 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Skio25

Anyone else sick of logging into facebook just to see a billion status updates about politics? At least here we have it consolidated to one big argument thread.
Too true.  It especially makes me mad when Facebook tries to tell me I should like someone's page.  "Hey man, this guy is a farking as-nole... you should like his page!"  No facebook, in fact I quite dislike that individule, and all of his friends as well.  So quit it!
2010-11 Gnu Danny Kass C2BTX, 2011-12 Union Atlas, 2012-13 Salomon Synapse & a 12-13 Thrive Renegade for kicks
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