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Edge Detuning

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snowmen View Drop Down
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  Quote snowmen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Edge Detuning
    Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 3:38pm
I have been riding a Burton Custom for about 6 years that I occasionally try to keep the edges reasonably sharp with a hand tool. I have been having lots of trouble recently holding an edge on icy or hard pack conditions so I decided to get a professional tune at the resort shop towards the end of the day. The edges looked great but as I did one run before closing, I noticed that it was definitely holding better on the steep, icy sections but I was also catching edges like I hadn't done since I was a beginner.

I need to get our again with the board and maybe I just need to be more careful with the sharp edges. I don't do rails but just wanted sharp edges for the often icy conditions in the East.

Does anyone detune their edges for free riding or is it primarily for rail riding? I am afraid  that if I detune then it will defeat my primary purpose of having better hold on ice. What are your thoughts? Thanks.
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  Quote vicente Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 3:52pm
snowmen don't de tune instead do a progressive base bevel basically what you want to do is just increase the base bevel just before and through the contact points right now it should be at a 1 more then likely you would want to go to a 1.5 degree or maybe a two take it into a place that tunes race ski's and ask them to give you a progressive base bevel on the tip and tail they should know what you're talking about.
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  Quote keljai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 4:47pm
for me although i do primarily groomers, i dont typically do detuning. I personally have a rocker board so that in itself wont find a differences.
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  Quote Lux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 5:59pm
I strongly advise against blunting your edges. The catchiness is most likely how the board is supposed to be when new-- you will need to adjust your riding technique to match. If you suspect the board is at fault, you can ask a shop to check the edges because they could have been sharpened more acutely than intended. I have heavily filed down my edges before which produced negligible results on groomers and mild sloppiness on ice patches.  Overall, a meaningless procedure unless you're hitting sketchy street rails.
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 7:44pm
I don't see the point in detuning unless you're sliding rails all the time.  sharp edges are good.. it's how snowboards are supposed to be :) and the catchiness is you being used to one thing and all the sudden riding another (edges got sharper), so you'll adjust.
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  Quote vicente Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 8:26pm
if he got a full/protune they would have sanded his base to flat and taken all the base bevel off of the edges and they may not have re-beveled the base edges which would actually make it super catchy even if you're a good rider. 
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/23/2014 at 11:11pm
must be a lot of people riding flat based in swivel mode while taking bong rips or something.  I ride factory sharp on all boards, some of which have no bevel, and have also sharpened to 90 in the past... I still haven't felt a catchy board.  I'm no Terje and I have the opposite of a snowboard-skill ego, but I'm thinkin' catchiness comes from the riding more than the board in most cases, especially with snowboards these days that have become easier and easier.  maybe I just don't see it and don't understand, but that's another tangent.  bedtime now!
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  Quote snowmen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/24/2014 at 1:45pm
Thanks for all the replies. They did do a base grind and I believe they were going to set the base angle to 1 degree and the side to 2 degrees. I only had the chance to do the one run but I will get out to a small local mountain hopefully this weekend and try it again. Maybe my riding has gotten sloppy (not that it has ever been really great) with the dull edges and I need to be more careful now.
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/24/2014 at 7:59pm
overcoming a more demanding ride will help make you a better rider in the end, since you have to ride better to get the board to work the way it wants to.  it's a good thing!  especially with edges.. edge control and awareness is essential for quality riding of the snow sliding device.
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  Quote vicente Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/24/2014 at 10:14pm
spenser basically every board ships with approximately a 1 degree base bevel only way you'll eve not have one is if you grind you base and edges completely flat, typically when you sharpen edges you only sharpen side bevel so the base bevel grows as little as possible.  
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  Quote )(nfinit)( Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 6:15am
i am sure spenser is aware of that, not his first rodeo sort of speak.
every shop I have ever went to has asked what bevel i want when they do a base grind, if you don't respond it is typical to give you approximately 1 deg.  

most likely scenario, the board edges were extremely rounded over the course of 6 years even with occasional hand tool sharpening.  good sharp edges will definitely be more catchy.  just give it a few days of riding, it's likely just your style relaxed.  
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 8:46am
not all boards have a bevel.  most do from most companies, but not all, like some mervins for example.
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  Quote Nickaledoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 9:40am
I am going to detune my board today, it is shtooking amazing on the ice, snow, and halfpipe but in the end I am always on the rails... Basically that is all we do, rails and jumps, and I caught an edge on a rail for the first time since the conditions were extra cold the rails were basically sticking to the boards and I caught an edge. Let me tell you, if you go on rails then detuning is seriously something you should look into. My friend dislocated his shoulder on a rail from catching an edge, I nailed my ribs but got out ok. If you are not hitting rails then get that thing as sharp as you can get it.
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  Quote Nickaledoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 9:49am

Here is a video which helped me immensely

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  Quote | | | bryman | | | Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 9:58am
Originally posted by spenser

must be a lot of people riding flat based in swivel mode while taking bong rips or something.  I ride factory sharp on all boards, some of which have no bevel, and have also sharpened to 90 in the past... I still haven't felt a catchy board.  I'm no Terje and I have the opposite of a snowboard-skill ego, but I'm thinkin' catchiness comes from the riding more than the board in most cases, especially with snowboards these days that have become easier and easier.  maybe I just don't see it and don't understand, but that's another tangent.  bedtime now!

Ppfffftttt!  As if edges make any difference when you get 2 feet of pow every night in the PNW

-b
get bent
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 10:02am
if only that were the reality, haha

ps... got myself a solid hovercraft last night.
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  Quote | | | bryman | | | Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 10:14am
^^^ mine's all waxed, sharped Wink and packed up (along with the wife's fish LTD) to shred silverton next week, hope it's deep!  

Max out the stance width when you ride that bad boy Spenser

-b
get bent
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 10:23am
haha why would I do that? I like my knees.. and being able to turn
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  Quote )(nfinit)( Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 11:10am
silverton is prepped to get a foot+ of snow saturday.  your timing looks to be very good.  might be a little jealous!
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  Quote | | | bryman | | | Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 11:43am
I thought the nose flexed weird and the craft just didn't hover "right" until I got my stance dialed, which was maxed on that board (I don't think the inserts are very wide but haven't looked at the stats).  I know you've been on the split but we'll see how you feel on the solid set up.  I did turn a couple times, for the record.  

And I'm not getting to silverton until next Thursday, but it is closed during the week so I'm hopeful it will set up nice and also be bluebird.  It will be awesome regardless and we have a nice crew.  I'll be somewhere along I-70 Sunday and Monday for whatever fresh they get, though

Sorry for threadjacking

-b
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  Quote JDiggidy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 1:05pm
I like my edges sharp.  overly sharp even.  My Thrive has a 2/2 and my DK is closer to a 1/2.  I only have a hand tool as well, so my estimates may be way off.

For me, if I know it's going to be a hard day, I also throw in some extra forward lean.  that seems to help more than edges.  Having magnatraction doesn't hurt anything, but I think the forward lean helps me grip edges better.  I'll start with throwing a bit more on my uphill foot when i'm unstrapped in the lift line or something... then add the downhill foot if i still feel squirrely. 
2010-11 Gnu Danny Kass C2BTX, 2011-12 Union Atlas, 2012-13 Salomon Synapse & a 12-13 Thrive Renegade for kicks
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  Quote | | | bryman | | | Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 1:17pm
So much for magnetraction:

Art shot

Turns ice to powder my ass

-b
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 1:18pm
I ride the same stance on every board and it's worked great for me on the split.. only real difference is that the split is a hair softer overall, although the tail is still stiff.  I love the hovercraft.. it rides short and it rides long.  it turns fast and wide, and it turns tight and quick too.  what I'm most excited about right now is racing around groomers with it, since the fresh snow we got last week is beat up.

the key is always to go fast, haha.  and personally, the wider the stance, the harder to turn properly and especially maneuver quickly but fluidly.  I ride 22" which is just shy of the reference width, and had plenty of space left to widen if I wanted.  moving my back foot to a positive angle (just +3) has also made a wonderful difference in the feel of turning.  I've always been a turny/carvy rider.. always on an edge, riding the sidecut, etc.  surprised it took me this long to go forward.  makes so much sense.
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 1:23pm
^^ haha word.  I like mellow mag like on the phoenix, only on groomers that aren't hardpacked, but personally, when it gets hard or especially icy, I almost feel like MTX makes it seem more sketchy to me. my theory is that ice just sucks to ride in general (no way?), and I'm also light and don't ride small or soft boards, so maybe I can't push it into hard snow the same way a larger person could.  who knows.  but yeah... mellow mag for me.  luckily all the mervin decks I like have it (phoenix, beast, billy goat) and jones too
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  Quote | | | bryman | | | Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 1:31pm
I also ride +3 in the back on my pow decks (and splits).  Someday I'm going to borrow some hardboots and get on a carver but not when anyone is watching.  Embarrassed

-b

P.S. I kid because I love, that accident was in no way the fault of the board or any proprietary Mervin technologies.  
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  Quote JDiggidy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by | | | bryman | | |

 P.S. I kid because I love, that accident was in no way the fault of the board or any proprietary Mervin technologies.  

I was totally going to mention Spenser's "it's not the tools, it's the carpenter" quote for ya'.
Wink

Truthfully, i've never had that "ice into powder" feeling on my DK... what I have had though was this feeling of, "huh... i shouldn't be able to ride this with this much (relative) ease." 

You know, speaking of Spenser; I have the opposite set up.  I'm a big guy on a little board.  All geared up I weigh at least 230, and because of my stubby legs I ride a 155.  that definitely helps me cut into junk.
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 3:10pm
MTX turns ice into ice. and it sucks.  if they came with a tiller on the nose then maybe they'd be onto something...
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  Quote snowmen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/25/2014 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by spenser

overcoming a more demanding ride will help make you a better rider in the end, since you have to ride better to get the board to work the way it wants to.  it's a good thing!  especially with edges.. edge control and awareness is essential for quality riding of the snow sliding device.

I agree and that is what I am hoping for but sometimes is tough to teach old dogs new tricks. I really wanted the sharper edges for the icy sections but I was surprised by catching edges on some chop. Thanks again to all for the help.
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  Quote belleayre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/26/2014 at 3:43am
Originally posted by vicente

spenser basically every board ships with approximately a 1 degree base bevel only way you'll eve not have one is if you grind you base and edges completely flat, typically when you sharpen edges you only sharpen side bevel so the base bevel grows as little as possible.  

not true of never summer and T. Rice Pro
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  Quote belleayre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/26/2014 at 9:45am
Originally posted by JDiggidy

Originally posted by | | | bryman | | |

 P.S. I kid because I love, that accident was in no way the fault of the board or any proprietary Mervin technologies.  

I was totally going to mention Spenser's "it's not the tools, it's the carpenter" quote for ya'.
Wink

Truthfully, i've never had that "ice into powder" feeling on my DK... what I have had though was this feeling of, "huh... i shouldn't be able to ride this with this much (relative) ease." 


Ice into powder is of course hype. I had the same feeling you describe with my T. Rice. I just got a Darker Series C3BTX and the grip is much better. I can carve much more aggressively in borderline conditions. On the same scraped off slope that the T. Rice might have slipped out if I pushed things with a high edge angle the Darker Series holds. I was also carving across icy moguls and holding an edge in the troughs. 
I haven't found it to be catchy although it has less float than the T. Rice. It still flat spins pretty easy but I haven't tried them at high speed yet.

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  Quote vicente Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/26/2014 at 10:12am
I like c3 if I could add another one to my collection I think I would get a board with that, and a eco genetics from last year since mine is 3 of 4 seasons old. 
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  Quote spenser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2014 at 8:41am
also loving that mervin is doing camber again, cause I sure love camber.  I've got a beast 58 and jamie lynn 160 that I'm riding and they're great.  I'd really like a darker series as they're a bit stiffer than the phoenix, but they've got full MTX and that's pretty much the one thing I don't like about the boards.

next year they have a profile called TT, which is camber/flat/camber, ie regular-ass camber.  that's actually the profile my phoenix has, and the darker series seems to as well, or at least the ones we got.

anyway.. edges...
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  Quote | | | bryman | | | Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2014 at 9:54am
get bent
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  Quote snowmen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/05/2014 at 4:11pm
Finally made it out again on the recently sharpened edges and I adjusted fine, no more catching edges. They are holding much better on ice and I have learned a lesson to keep them sharp. Thanks again to all for your advice. Cheers!
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